Blessed Are the Undone? Interview with Angela Reitsma Bick

Vanessa Caruso and Andy Withrow introduce a new podcast for the Vancouver Island School of Theology and the Arts (VISTA) and promote an upcoming conference titled "Blessed are the undone," featuring keynote speaker Angela Reitsma Bick and pre-conference lecturer Peter Schuurman. The conference, scheduled for May 15 and June 6-7, 2025, will explore the book "Blessed are the undone: testimonies of the quiet deconstruction of faith in Canada," co-authored by Bick and Schuurman. The book discusses the phenomenon of faith deconstruction in Canada, using canoe camping as a metaphor for the spiritual journey. Bick emphasizes the importance of addressing the triggers for deconstruction and the need for reconciliation within the church.

Links:

Blessed Are the Undone Pre-Conference Lecture w/ Peter Schuurman - May 15, 2025

Blessed Are the Undone Conference w/ Angela Reitsma Bick - June 6-7, 2025

https://www.vistacanada.org/

Transcript

Vanessa Caruso: 0:00

Music. Welcome to coastal theology, a podcast from the Vancouver Island School of Theology and the arts. We explore how Christian faith, learning and creativity flourish on Vancouver Island, and how you can be part of the story.

Andy Withrow: 0:17

Here we are, Vanessa and Andy at it again. This is, I think we're going to try to do something a little different. We're we've been hosting bear with a podcast called bear with me for years, and we're starting a new podcast. We don't know what it's called yet, but it's for, we know that it is for the Vancouver Island School of Theology and the arts, aka Vista. VISTA, not Vista, no Vista, yes, right. And so you're gonna find this podcast in two spots. If you're with our bear with me group, you can look for us on the new podcast, which doesn't have a name yet, so good luck. But we'll probably post something at some point, once we figure that stuff out, hopefully soon, like in the next few days, we got to get going here. So today is really exciting, because we've got a big conference coming up that we wanted to promote for VISTA. And it turns out it's a really good one,

Vanessa Caruso: 1:12

yes, I am so excited about it, called Blessed are the undone Yes, and it has a book called Blessed are the undone testimonies of the quiet deconstruction of faith in Canada. That's

Andy Withrow: 1:26

right, and it's by Angela reitzma bick and Peter Sherman. VISTA is hosting a conference. Angela is going to be the keynote. Peter is coming a few weeks beforehand to do a pre conference lecture that's on May 15. We'll have all the information in the notes on this podcast, so you can check it out. Or you can go to www Vista canada.org, and you'll find all the information that you need there. Yes, everything that VISTA does. But this is the big one that's coming up here in May and June of 2025

Vanessa Caruso: 1:57

right? Yes. And we got to interview Angela writes my book. That's right, which was so exciting, because I loved the book, and we heard a little bit more from her and Vanessa. This is the intro. Oh, it's supposed to be short. No, no, no, no. It's supposed to be we haven't done it yet. In a way, you're putting the curtain behind. You're pulling the curtain back as soon. Oh, no, behind the scenes. So you have to speak in the future tense, like we're about to interview. Okay, I bet it's gonna be great. It's probably gonna be really good. Yeah, I'm guessing, sure way to know ahead of time. Okay, the book is blessed. Are the undone testimonies of the quiet deconstruction of faith in Canada. As As Vanessa just said, I'm just gonna read a little bit from the back here, and then I'll then I'll intro Angela. Canadian Christians frustrated with the church have come undone and are leaving politely, almost apologetically. Vanessa, in what this book dubs a quiet deconstruction, Blessed are the undone asks what aspects of faith are being questioned and why? Weaving in church history, cultural analysis and their personal stories, bick and Sherman use canoe camping to illustrate the twists and turns of the spiritual journey, whether you feel like you're up the creek without a paddle when it comes to faith, or if people you love have lost their bearings. This book is for you. So we both read it. We both really liked it. It was super helpful. Very well researched. Yeah, well written. And yeah, yeah, helpful. So we're going to welcome, we're going to interview and welcome our guest, Angela Reitz mobik. Angela reitsma bik is editor in chief of Christian courier and an award winning journalist recognized for her work highlighting social justice issues. In 2016 she won the AC forest Memorial Award for an article on female clergy called the stained glass ceiling, followed by the Distinguished Alumni Award from Redeemer University. In 2020 she loves to read, hike and camp with her family, so we welcome Angela Reitz mobik, and right now we're having trouble with Angela's audio. So we're going to talk about what we liked about the book and see if we need that sorted out. I love this book. It was so helpful, helpfully descriptive of the Canadian setting in wider North American context, and faith deconstruction kind of what's been happening in Canada for a number of years now, and your book, you co author it with Peter Sherman, sorry, I didn't have the name inform and Peter's coming to YES to Victoria, along with Angela for a conference coming up. We'll talk a bit more about that later. The book itself, helpfully and painfully, is honest and sober and hopeful, it's imaginative, it's constructive. And I came away reading from reading the book feeling hopeful and encouraged, which was pretty significant, because this is a topic that feels heavy for most of us, or a lot of us, whether we're in the church setting, whether we're pastor. Whether we're leaders in the church, or whether we're going through just a season of disorientation with our in relationship to God and our faith in the church and all those sorts of things. So I was very impressed, and I found the book very helpful. Same Andy. Andy told me how good it was, and so I read it, and then I was so surprised, I'm not sure why. Maybe because I I had heard that this is a book about deconstruction and that there were interviews. So I just thought, Oh, these are going to be hard stories, one after another just kind of left there to be undone with. And I guess that was my assumption. So I was so surprised how thoughtfully the two of you stewarded all of those stories and wove them into like, a greater point of view. And I was surprised by how inspiring it was. Like, I got really excited. I didn't think I'd finish the book and feel so excited. I thought I'd feel a little bit depressed or something. But I was like, these feel like the 95 thesis that Martin Luther nailed on the door or whatever, especially there's this part towards the end where you do suggest some ways forward. And there's like, a really assertive voice and and a light hearted voice. It's not like you have to, the church has to do this, but it's like, here are some suggestions. And I was like, these feel like they're like 13 theses that the church needs. So I was surprised by that and by the compassion. Like I just felt like, Wow, what a compassionate, appreciative, affirmative take on deconstruction and on those who are undone and lost and wandering so thoroughly surprised and glad to talk about it with you, Angela or

Andy Withrow: 6:44

Angela, perhaps, let's start with the question, what can you tell us? What does it mean to be undone? This

Angela Reitsma Bick: 6:52

was a word we coined, at least in this usage, to kind of parallel the vernacular of the nones and dones. So sociologists, when they study, you know, how many people in a certain area have faith? The nuns are those who pick no religion on the Census and Canadian data, right? But, but we felt like, well, that's not good enough just the metrics of bums in pews at church. Like we need to know more than that. So it felt like a new category was needed to describe the type of experience of having your faith undone. So you're raised in the church, there's a time period where everything there matters a lot to you, but whether actively or passively, faith has fallen apart. And so that word conveys some of the devastation, I think, in that experience, and some of the distance between the individual and their community, but we think that idea of being undone is kind of a growing demographic that needs more research. So it's also an invitation to other scholars and pastors and people are interested in this to understand what what happens when you lose ties with the church structure that you were raised in? Hmm?

Vanessa Caruso: 8:04

I moved here and you talk about that because even I don't, I don't know English grammar enough to know what tense this word is undone or whatever, but there's that prefix on and then this word done. And so to choose to put those together does feel like it captures, to me, the, I don't know how to say it, but like the nature of loss, the experience of loss, for those who have lost ties, and it just feels the opposite of like wrapped up in a bow. It's like something is kind of lying there open, yep.

Andy Withrow: 8:41

And I think in the book, you said it comes from the Beatitudes. Was it the Message translation, I can't remember,

Vanessa Caruso: 8:48

or Isaiah, yeah. It's

Angela Reitsma Bick: 8:50

Isaiah, yeah. I believe he says, Woe to me, for I am undone. I think the only other time it comes up is in the sense of, forgive us for things we have left undone. That's a prayer as well, which is kind of interesting.

Vanessa Caruso: 9:10

It's so beautiful that very early on in the book, deconstruction and being undone is kind of cast in this more appreciative light. I remember you quoting Jamie Smith, who's like one of our favorite authors, so that was fun. And he calls deconstruction a deeply affirmative mode of critique, attentive to the way in which texts and structures and institutions marginal, marginalize and exclude the other, with an eye towards reconstruction and reconstituting those institutions and practices. I mean to say that deconstruction is a deeply affirmative mode is so surprising because there can be connotations with those who deconstruct like they're being careless or immature. Or rash or something like that, rather than potentially something bigger going on, like a prophetic undertaking that's for the sake of something more beautiful and more true in the future?

Angela Reitsma Bick: 10:16

Yeah, I think maybe that's what you were thinking of. Andy with the Sermon on the Mount section, like, that's the other half of our title, and that is from the Beatitudes. So the blessing that comes along with being undone. So Peter and I call the Beatitudes a New Testament, under understanding of blessing, and it so it's not the same as in the Old Testament. God blesses King David or the Israelites or job. And if we're honest, that Old Testament blessing is kind of what we want and what we want for our churches. But then in the being undone is closer to a New Testament kind of blessing the way in Matthew 25 that Jesus blesses the poor in spirit and the meek and the persecuted. And I think that fits better for us as Christians in Canada today, because our context is closer to the Israelites when they were in exile, not when they were in their heyday, right? So our churches are shrinking. Our pastors have failed us. We're scattered. We might feel like we're in exile and but there still is in that experience a measure of blessing, and it might look different. It might mean humility, or leaning on God, trusting not in our kings or mega churches, but in something else.

Andy Withrow: 11:32

Yeah, yeah. And on this topic, you were, you're chatting about a little bit earlier, but this idea that perhaps this isn't you get in the book early on. Perhaps this isn't that abnormal, actually, that this is maybe a normal process of faith development is any even just more broader any kind of maturity just requires as we get older, the world view we grew up with as kids just doesn't hold water anymore, and it needs to be loosened up, if it needs to be undone a bit, and retested and refined and and taken up again. I think this is in what chapter was this. This was we were all in chapters early on. Yeah, it's our firm conviction that some sort of deconstruction is normal for growth, whether it takes the shape of falling away repentance or the quiet reconstruction that we call sanctification. This is true in my life. I mean, it was before, I mean, I was an English major. So deconstruction, that in the 90s and 2000s was for me, a very literary thing that you studied and read about. I had to in my early 20s. I had, I had a reorientation of my faith, and it was a season of dislocation and disorientation that I didn't have the language of deconstruction around that. But that's what it was. And so, so I that just resonated with me that this, this seems like a healthy, normal part of of people growing up in in their faith?

Angela Reitsma Bick: 13:06

Yeah, it's not a synonym for deconversion, right? But some people treat it that way. Yeah,

Andy Withrow: 13:12

that's right. And I think, my, I think the fear as pastors can be that because, and you write about this too, because there's a whole industry out there now for around deconstruction, that you're losing people to this thing unnecessarily, when, like, aren't you just growing up in your faith? But it can, as a pastor, you might, you're kind of losing authority in this process, necessarily, because it, in some ways, it is an individual thing that's that you have to let people do, or there's a tension there, at least, for sure,

Vanessa Caruso: 13:48

I loved that part, the kind of prophetic edge of, I forget what the chapter was called, with tithing in

Angela Reitsma Bick: 13:56

it. Oh, add to cart.

Vanessa Caruso: 13:59

Yes, add to cart. And just like you both talking about how kind of inherent in deconstruction is getting back to the other and just relations with the other. And so who is deconstruction serving? And when there is a subculture and a consumer culture around deconstruction, yeah, you know, are there ways that we could even deconstruct? Yeah, a little bit with with more justice, yeah, and with more mercy. So that part surprised me, the the reality, like how America or the United States just felt so big, like I wrote down in the margins of the book at one place, like stand down like your shadow. You're just like encroaching all of the things to buy and to do and to think and the volume, and we should self disclose right now that we're both. Yes, from the United States. Okay, Andy, yeah, sorry. Andy has been here for so long. I'm, like, almost 10 years in and a permanent resident, but so even so, I'm just admitting that the canadianness of this book was really amazing to read, and I felt this like a zealousness for deconstruction to be able to happen locally and with more justice. Yeah,

Angela Reitsma Bick: 15:30

yeah. Just to pick up on two threads there, I think the same way people can assume deconstruction equals deconversion and then therefore is negative, you can go the opposite and kind of glorify it and say, Oh, it's wonderful, and you have to do it. And that's what that chapter Add to Cart pushes against. It's not the solution to everything. And and when it happens only online, you lose you lose that community. Embodied community, right? And so we had conservative readers say they really appreciated that chapter, because otherwise it's they don't want to wholesale acceptance. There's some pushback on that section, too, and what you're saying? Andy, I think if, if at the local church level, you can have smaller health smaller deconstructions along the way, like, let's say in your youth group, there's avenues and opportunities for faith formation that explore some of these topics. And then it can be healthy to have those early and bit by bit. And then it's less devastating. It's not one big thing that happens mid 20s or something, yeah,

Andy Withrow: 16:32

or in even teaching, teaching ourselves and our youth how to have those conversations, that the church is a place for this. Yeah, it's the it's a it's a great, maybe the best place for it, in a lot of ways. But the this, the some of the damning aspects of your book, is that the church has so not been that space for so many people who who have to go outside of it to find to figure out what's going on, to find truth. Ironically, where the church should be the champion of truth in some of this, and it's probably around that chapter. I think for me, some of what you guys were getting at in the book, begs the question, should we be deconstructing American culture in its appetite for certainty, as much as as deconstructing our our own personal faith? Because the one of the things that came up for me is is that we, if there's no room for discussion, we because some of the maybe an idol, an idol of the Church, has been certainty and no no doubt and no questioning, that sometimes some of the commercialization of the industry of deconstruction, just it's the same. It's the other side of the coin, yes, just in the opposite direction. In the idols, the idol remains of we just want to be held and certain in this space and have control and know. And so much of, when you read through the scriptures and you follow this Jesus, so much of it is not certain, so much of it is not in your control. And some of that's the point anyway, that I had never thought of it that way before. But just just hearing some of the stories and in some of the stats from from the book, just like, wow, there's, there's a bigger idol here, it seems, for for us in the church and outside of the church,

Angela Reitsma Bick: 18:37

for sure, I think there's a lot you could add to that too. It's not only celebrity culture, kind of that we've inherited or taken on as our own. The American Dream that we talked touched on already, maybe a bit of Christian nationalism. And then if, if we're honest about the statistics, just we have less power in Canada, right? We have, there's fewer Christians, you know, per capita, than in the States. So so if we borrow all their curriculum and keynote speakers and books, then those things don't quite fit here. And so what's different about Canada, and how can we talk about

Andy Withrow: 19:12

that? Yeah, that's good.

Vanessa Caruso: 19:15

Angela, what surprised you about writing the book like you went in with so much vision, it seems like, and then your camping metaphor throughout the book felt like it made a lot of space for living it all out, you know, like it felt like it was unfolding. So it made me wonder, what were you not expecting, or what surprised you?

Angela Reitsma Bick: 19:44

Yeah, it took us a long time to get to a definition of deconstruction, and I think part of that is because everyone uses it differently and they mean different things. And probably one of the things that surprised me the most was how we eventually developed this in. Are two ways of understanding it, so the individual and the institutional. And that's, I see that as really one of the main theses of the book, that these individual stories, that's where we started talking to people and gathering their stories, but putting them together helped us create this prophetic call for the church and all Christian institutions, and that, like we didn't plan on that in the beginning, but I but I think that it does help to explain a lot of the struggles of current denominations and and Christian institutions and so. So those two angles or approaches, yeah, we didn't see that coming.

Andy Withrow: 20:42

There's some quotes from the book Jesus only died for failures. Become a failure admitting church,

Vanessa Caruso: 20:49

yeah, and not as self where is it? Rather than a self justifying church, we need to stop being a self justifying church and become a failure admitting church.

Andy Withrow: 21:00

So that that led us to beg the question for you, Angela, was there any failures in this project?

Angela Reitsma Bick: 21:08

Yeah, that's a good question. I didn't really write anything out for that one, but I did think about it a lot. Took us three our publisher might say the timeline we we in the beginning said we'll be done in a year, and that was completely ridiculous. It took us three years, and my, one of my sisters, teaches middle school, and she has to teach at a Christian school. She teaches science and sex ed and creation, and so she was annoyed. She said, Well, you should have talked to me before writing those chapters, which I didn't do. So yeah, and we've had a little bit of pushback on not taking a stand in the chapter on LGBTQ issues because, but that was a deliberate choice to to focus on what we heard from the people we spoke to, which was their the real issue was not support or asking to change. It was just the treatment, just to so to keep it simple, so there's entire books and libraries on that issue, and that was not our our mandate, but just to be very specific, and to keep that, to stay in our lane on that topic, was it was deliberate, but not always appreciating

Vanessa Caruso: 22:25

those don't sound like really juicy, but I appreciate you sharing some of them right now. For us, it's Easter Week, and I was really inspired towards the end of the book about the quotes from Ronald rolheiser. I love that book. What is it called a holy longing? Maybe, where these quotes about like our inner fire and desire. You know that we're all hungry, and it's a matter of what we do with our hunger and our desire. And you also quoted Eugene, oh no, it would be Wendell Berry's poem about practicing resurrection, the bad farmers Liberation Front that ends with practice resurrection. So I just wondered for you, Angela, if you have any like inspiration right now about practicing resurrection in your own context and community and or now that this three year project is done, like, where's your hunger? What's your fire? Where's it going?

Angela Reitsma Bick: 23:33

Those are such great questions. And I didn't write these out perfectly either, but I can, I think I can say a little something. I in my day job. I'm editor of a faith based publication called Christian career, and we just published this Easter issue with the front page story, or it was a reflection by Brian Walsh, who's a pastor and and a poet, and it was a poem called resurrection in the ruins. So I've just been thinking about that idea that he, he, he kind of rewrites Isaiah 65 where the Israelites have come back and everything is in shambles and they have to rebuild. And I know that for some people, it feels like their church or the denomination or their ministry is kind of in that stage. But he, and so he goes through the problems and but then lists like the areas of hope, and how can we, how can there be resurrection, even there? And, of course, we believe that there is and so, SO to SO, the practice part just comes, I think, from, from not allowing the world or ourselves to just to just sit there in the ruins and and only see the ruins, but to look around for evidence of the resurrection, and to practice, you know, to make it possible, to do what you can even in the middle of that. So, yeah, like in my in my family there, you know, there can be, there can be. Problems there can be, you know, elderly parents or bills. Are you worried about the future? Or I gave a talk in Toronto a couple weeks ago on the book, and our My car got towed the like these things. You know, the brokenness of the world is always there and it's always real, but there still is joy in the midst of that, and God is still at work. And then in terms of the inner fire, I think, I think this particular moment now, you'll have to tell me what you think as Americans living in Canada, but like we are in really interesting times historically. Right between this relationship between Canada and the US is It's tense in ways that are new and different. And one interesting but potentially positive side effect is a bit more Canadian patriotism, right? So, so what does that mean for churches like can any of that energy be harnessed for good discussion about what it means to be, to be, to have your church be where it is. If, if you've always used all your material from the state, like, maybe, maybe this is the time to say, well, could we have a budget? What's in our library? What are we preaching from? What are people reading? All those kinds of things.

Vanessa Caruso: 26:16

Love that.

Andy Withrow: 26:19

Yeah, I like, like, the image of more of a home cooked meal than, you know, the canned soup all the time, yeah, sometimes you need it or take out or take out, yeah, eating a little healthier. Yeah? What is, yeah, maybe, as for pastors and for church leadership, taking a bit of a risk there. And what is, what is the Spirit of God speaking to us if we become over reliant on, you know, on our on our heroes and in other places, that's good.

Vanessa Caruso: 26:51

Well, I feel like we should talk about the conference coming up. Angela

Andy Withrow: 26:56

is coming to Victoria, yes,

Vanessa Caruso: 26:58

yeah. I'm very excited soon. Yeah. So exciting in June.

Andy Withrow: 27:01

Do you have the dates? Do you have the I think it's

Vanessa Caruso: 27:04

the sixth and seventh. Yes. Does that sound right? Yeah, that's right. Okay. What will that be like, that conference, and who should come? Well,

Angela Reitsma Bick: 27:16

I have a question for you, what are the what's the likelihood of whales being nearby at that time of year because my daughter's so excited. Our best,

Vanessa Caruso: 27:24

yes, okay, yeah, called, I think flying into Vancouver and taking the ferry over. Yeah,

Angela Reitsma Bick: 27:33

that's what we're doing. Okay, okay, perfect.

Vanessa Caruso: 27:37

Cue the whales. That's what I'll try to do. I

Angela Reitsma Bick: 27:40

think it's ecumenical, right? People from all over any different churches are coming and that, that's a really cool part of of what's happening. And I think that's the way forward for Christianity in Canada, honestly, is to work together, rather than little tiny groups struggling on their own all over the place, just, you're right, yeah, kind of pool our resources. And speaking of relationships, I'm going to talk about reconciliation. So another way to look at in the book, Peter and I talk about these seven triggers, which are the reasons why people deconstruct. But if you flip those and go through kind of addressing those issues, then each of them have to do with writing, the relationship, you know, between two parties, so between with each other. You talked about. Jamie Smith says deconstruction is a turn to the other. And with the earth we talk about in the book, and with God so that, so that reconciliation can address the deconstruction. And then what I think is really helpful is if we look at Ecclesiastes and just say what time is it for your church? And maybe figure out which of the triggers it's a it's overwhelming to think about all of them, but maybe there's just one or two that are the most urgent in your context, and then there's the necessary reconciliation there. So that's to me, that's the hopeful angle. This the same thing in the book, where we don't just talk about the problems, we don't stay there. But what does it mean for the Canadian church? What can we do about it? Is really what I'd like to explore.

Vanessa Caruso: 29:12

I love that the medium is kind of the message of this conference, that just like you said, different churches and communities all gathering together already, just at, you know, 10 minutes after it starts, or whatever, there's already something reparative and hopeful about that I felt very companioned through the book. I haven't gone through deconstruction in, like, a really extreme way, but just being part of churches for so long, growing up with a pastor for a dad and having like little deaths along the way, I felt like this was kind of It wasn't an exit interview for me, but it had the same feel as like an exit interview, which you might even say you were providing for people. Yeah. So I imagine people coming just to not be alone, yeah, in that experience of feeling undone at times over the years, and sad yeah and disconnected, like it could be reparative just to be Yeah, with people who acknowledge that, like some of your your theses that I love, I won't give them away because I feel like it's the climax of the book. But to those who have questions and feel adrift, let them freely explore. And for those who are weary from treading water, let them regain hope. I would think the conference might do some of that just by virtue of being together,

Angela Reitsma Bick: 30:40

yeah? I think so. I hope so. That's the prayer for sure.

Andy Withrow: 30:47

Yeah, yeah. So, this is in June. Peter Sherman's coming in May. It's true for a pre, pre conference lecture. It's May 15, I think. Yeah, nice. So that'll be an evening lecture, and then, and then we'll have this conference on a weekend, Angela, you're gonna, you're gonna be speaking on Friday night. Yep, nothing is wasted, finding a measure of blessing, even in the midst of conflict and crisis. Yeah. And then you'll be the keynote for Saturday. There's gonna be a lot of, I think, different breakout sessions, different speakers. So big event, you'll be the keynote, and I'm just gonna read your what you had sent is your title? If that's the title, good question, faith that allows room for doubt, pastors who admit their mistakes and liturgy with a built in time for reconciliation, those will sound fascinating to me. Yes, these are just a few of the ways that Canadian churches can become more reconstruction friendly. Can hope be born in the face of despair. Can there be, to quote Brian Walsh, resurrection among the ruins, which you just talked about, what would it look like if churches were a place where small deconstructions happened regularly alongside ongoing reconstruction? There's a lot of a lot of space to explore here, I think, both for church leaders and for for Christians, who are kind of all over the map in terms of how they relate to this question of faith deconstruction, whether they're going through it themselves, the undone process, or, I know a lot in in my community, it's, it's often walking with friends or family members who are who are disoriented, and going through that process. So

Vanessa Caruso: 32:18

that's exciting. I love your description. That's

Andy Withrow: 32:22

why I read it. Thank you. Yes,

Vanessa Caruso: 32:25

and I love nothing is wasted. That's such a great title. Thank you.

Angela Reitsma Bick: 32:33

Yeah, maybe a shorter way to say the same thing is we, we have a mix of data stories, and then I get, I'm a kind of a metaphor addict. So any metaphor I can find. I'll just play around with it for a while, and that'll be part of my talk.

Vanessa Caruso: 32:45

Amazing. Yeah, the camping theme, I didn't I didn't know camping until I camped with Canadians, and now it's part of my life, and it's such a good line throughout the whole book, and the picture of that canoe that resurfaces? Yes, he's

Angela Reitsma Bick: 33:03

the hopeful guy. He's heading somewhere new. The guy on the front, he's on Portage,

Vanessa Caruso: 33:07

yeah, so you already mentioned that you work for a Christian publication. So if people like me are like, wow, I really responded well to your writing and to your particular vision and passion, where and how can we stay connected to your work?

Angela Reitsma Bick: 33:30

My publication is called Christian courier. So Christian courier.ca You can search for my name or just have fun reading all the variety of articles there. It's It's news from a Christian perspective. We're one of the only faith based independent news publications left in Canada. And then I have a website, which is Angela writesma bic.ca and there's a couple of links there to another podcast I was on, and some talks that have been saved on YouTube. And I'm working on a Spotify playlist that will be there eventually with songs you know, singer songwriters who have wrestled kind of with the gifts and failures of church. And that's just a side project, but it's lots of

Vanessa Caruso: 34:10

fun, cool a playlist. And do you want to leave us with any words of encouragement for anyone listening who might feel in the middle of being undone today?

Angela Reitsma Bick: 34:27

Yeah, I would just say you're in such good company. I know it can feel like the loneliest place, but you're if you miss the community, that there's not one there, like what you left. But others have reached these shores in the camping metaphor. There's an author that I love, Nora. He'll Hudson. She says, some years are the questions, some years are the answers. I think, just give yourself permission to hang out in the questions for a while. And that's that can be holy ground.

Unknown: 34:58

Hmm.

Vanessa Caruso: 35:00

Yeah, that's a beautiful blessing. It reminds me You said somewhere in the book, not all who wander or loss, yeah, you know, not all who are undone are lost, yeah. Well, thank you so much, Angela, it was so good to talk to you after you're loving this book.

Andy Withrow: 35:22

The book is called Blessed are the undone. Yes, the conference is called Blessed are the undone, right? Okay, just okay. For consistency sake, it's coming up. We've got pre conference lectured May 15. The conference itself will be in June. And stay tuned for all of that. And yeah, we're excited to have you, Angela, thanks for spending this time with us, and we'll see you in about six or seven weeks or so.

Angela Reitsma Bick: 35:47

Okay, thank you for being such good readers of the book. Oh, happy time. Our pleasure.

Andy Withrow: 35:54

All right, okay, it's just you. Andy

Vanessa Caruso: 35:56

Vanessa, yes, that was so fun. We haven't done an interview in a while, so I feel like it was

Andy Withrow: 36:01

good to blow the dust off the old interviews. Exactly.

Vanessa Caruso: 36:05

I am really excited about her talk, yeah, like nothing is wasted. And then that little description you read like how to be a church that's more welcoming to reconstruction, including within the liturgy, not just the like posture, yeah,

Andy Withrow: 36:24

that's right. I think, I think not being afraid of of what's been called Faith deconstruction. I think the book makes an excellent case for saying this is a this can, and maybe should be a regular part of maturing faith for all of us in and you shared a bit about, you know, you didn't have a cataclysmic Deacon reconstruction of faith, but you've had these little dyings along the way. I made reference to, you know, when I was in my early 20s, there was a disorientation, a reorientation, to to to kind of grow into something new. So that makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah, is maybe being not afraid to explore this with those who are feeling disoriented. Yeah,

Vanessa Caruso: 37:13

beautiful. I did witness baptism on Easter morning, so when you read the description of her talk, and my imagination started going, you know, I thought, well, this is like, too cheesy. I don't know how you would do it, but it just made me think, what would it look like to bless those who are becoming undone a little bit within the community? You know, we have these other sacraments for other stages of faith. What would it look like to Yeah, for that to be normal and, you know, to gather around someone and like, bless them, yeah, I like it,

Andy Withrow: 37:51

yeah, yeah. I think there's a lot of good questions and maybe a lot of unknowns of what it looks like, because it's just a place to explore giving even just having a a space, being a church space that allows for and welcomes questioning, can be challenging for church leaders, because that's it's vulnerability, it's uncertainty, but I think it's an important space to try to lead people into and occupy, because that's how That's how we grow up, that's how we learn, yeah, in all areas of life, and certainly in how we how we follow Jesus. So yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah,

Vanessa Caruso: 38:34

it feels exciting to think about what's on the other side of deconstruction and reconstruction, like you know, what are people like, who have kind of hit the wall or fallen off, and then I sense like people have a little bit more clarity and maybe a little bit more courage to have a prophetic voice, or, I don't know, it feels like very creative what's next for the church and for Christians?

Andy Withrow: 39:08

Yeah, I think the thing to add to that is, I think, in my own experience, it you come back the other side with a lot more humility, oh yeah, and openness to to things being left, some things being undone. And, yeah, yeah, I guess just space for that and and open to listening a bit more and wrestling with things, as opposed to, you know, I think most of us, myself included, are just feel more comfortable when things are certain, definitely. And so there's a there's an attraction to certainty. Well, this is, you know, the whole God said it, I believe it. That settles it for me. It's a nice sentiment, and maybe it's true for for some things, but, but. It just doesn't always hold water, so you need a bit more space to explore. And I think it seems like God's okay with that. He's not afraid of those things. And if anything, maybe he's very much in the middle of that process, it seems, of art coming undone and being reformed.

Vanessa Caruso: 40:21

Yeah, mystery. I kept thinking of, like, humility, like it like a mystery. More comfort, right in the mystery. I also am impressed that this was a side project that they did at nights after their full time jobs. Like, how inspiring that this is somewhere it could go. Yeah, yeah. If you said, like, Hey, should we, like, think about deconstruction and take people's stories, I'd be like, that sounds like, big and overwhelming, and what could it lead to? So I'm inspired by that like to kind of follow my interests, yeah, my curiosities a little bit at a time, for a long time, and then it might go somewhere,

Andy Withrow: 41:03

yeah, well, and maybe that touches in to the last question you asked Angela, which is, what's, what's, Oh, yeah. Oh, no one, yeah, desire, what do you have the inner fire about? Because the that kind of speaks to this project. Obviously, it took a lot of effort and energy and focus and extra time and sacrifice. So those questions of, where is, yeah, where is the Spirit of God? Kind of kindling, something love this individually or as as a community?

Vanessa Caruso: 41:35

That's a good Pentecost question. Yeah. Kindling a little

Andy Withrow: 41:39

early, yeah. So getting ready for Pentecost, yeah,

Vanessa Caruso: 41:44

anything else from the conversation you want to highlight? Or no,

Andy Withrow: 41:50

just that we could have probably talked for hours. I had, I mean, a lot of the stuff I brought up early on was just from the first five chapters of a 23 chapter book, I think so. Yeah, so there's so much more there. Recommend, if you can, I would recommend this book, and if you can come to the conference, I think it'd be worthwhile. For sure, one more time, registration details will be www,

Vanessa Caruso: 42:19

www, VISTA, canada.org

Andy Withrow: 42:22

Vista canada.org

Vanessa Caruso: 42:25

Yes, great. You can RSVP. There's discounts for like, groups of like eight or more or something, so if you want to get a bunch of friends, yeah, great, fun. Fun. See you there.

Andy Withrow: 42:37

Yeah, well, let's do another podcast. Sometime. Fun. Thanks. Vanessa Bye, Andy Bye, everybody.

Vanessa Caruso: 42:46

Thanks for listening to coastal theology, a podcast from the Vancouver Island School of Theology and the arts. For more information on Vista, go to VISTA canada.org. You.